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	<title>Comments on: Epistemological battlespaces</title>
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	<link>http://marctyrrell.com/2008/08/24/epistemological-battlespaces/</link>
	<description>Being in the main the musings of a Symbolic Anthropologist</description>
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		<title>By: &#187; Ethics debates in universities In Harmonium: Being in the main the musings of a Symbolic Anthropologist</title>
		<link>http://marctyrrell.com/2008/08/24/epistemological-battlespaces/comment-page-1/#comment-1215</link>
		<dc:creator>&#187; Ethics debates in universities In Harmonium: Being in the main the musings of a Symbolic Anthropologist</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 23 Sep 2008 13:43:25 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://marctyrrell.com/?p=65#comment-1215</guid>
		<description>[...] Elsewhere, I have argued that there are several meta-epistemologies that dominate perceptual stances and reflect and refract various metaphysical positions.  And yet, much of the current debate is dominated by the assumption of a very limited sub-set of these positions.  Very crudely, the &#8220;university&#8217;s role in society&#8221; debate is dominated by a pragmatism-empiricism-materialism stance on the part of many university administrations and an idealism-romanticism stance by many academics (see here for these stances).  Nowhere in this &#8220;debate&#8221; do I see much of a discussion of individual ethics, merely a discussion (if one can call it that) of corporate morality. [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] Elsewhere, I have argued that there are several meta-epistemologies that dominate perceptual stances and reflect and refract various metaphysical positions.  And yet, much of the current debate is dominated by the assumption of a very limited sub-set of these positions.  Very crudely, the &#8220;university&#8217;s role in society&#8221; debate is dominated by a pragmatism-empiricism-materialism stance on the part of many university administrations and an idealism-romanticism stance by many academics (see here for these stances).  Nowhere in this &#8220;debate&#8221; do I see much of a discussion of individual ethics, merely a discussion (if one can call it that) of corporate morality. [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Default theories &#171; Dead Voles</title>
		<link>http://marctyrrell.com/2008/08/24/epistemological-battlespaces/comment-page-1/#comment-533</link>
		<dc:creator>Default theories &#171; Dead Voles</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 26 Aug 2008 04:05:24 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://marctyrrell.com/?p=65#comment-533</guid>
		<description>[...] on Dead&#160;zonesCarl on UndecisionShahar Ozeri on Undecisionbobritzema on Undecision&#187; Epistemologi&#8230; on Top 10 ways to get stuff into &#8230;noen on Undecisionnoen on [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] on Dead&nbsp;zonesCarl on UndecisionShahar Ozeri on Undecisionbobritzema on Undecision&raquo; Epistemologi&hellip; on Top 10 ways to get stuff into &hellip;noen on Undecisionnoen on [...]</p>
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		<title>By: admin</title>
		<link>http://marctyrrell.com/2008/08/24/epistemological-battlespaces/comment-page-1/#comment-526</link>
		<dc:creator>admin</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 25 Aug 2008 20:54:15 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://marctyrrell.com/?p=65#comment-526</guid>
		<description>Hi Carl,

Thanks for the comment - a lot to think about .  Personally, I find that putting these ideas out in a linear form helps me to think about them analytically.  I&#039;m certainly not saying that this is how they actually operate; I&#039;m convinced that any given &quot;role&quot; will have its own meta-epistemology, and that these can be totally contradictory.

The issue of &quot;choice&quot; is an interesting one.  I&#039;m not using it so much in the sense of &quot;informed, rational choice&quot; so much as the sense of &quot;perceived options&quot;.  And, since our perceptions are heavily influenced by our interpretive schemas and emotions, I would hardly argue that they are &quot;rational&quot;, although I would argue that we rationalize them .</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Hi Carl,</p>
<p>Thanks for the comment &#8211; a lot to think about .  Personally, I find that putting these ideas out in a linear form helps me to think about them analytically.  I&#8217;m certainly not saying that this is how they actually operate; I&#8217;m convinced that any given &#8220;role&#8221; will have its own meta-epistemology, and that these can be totally contradictory.</p>
<p>The issue of &#8220;choice&#8221; is an interesting one.  I&#8217;m not using it so much in the sense of &#8220;informed, rational choice&#8221; so much as the sense of &#8220;perceived options&#8221;.  And, since our perceptions are heavily influenced by our interpretive schemas and emotions, I would hardly argue that they are &#8220;rational&#8221;, although I would argue that we rationalize them .</p>
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		<title>By: Carl</title>
		<link>http://marctyrrell.com/2008/08/24/epistemological-battlespaces/comment-page-1/#comment-525</link>
		<dc:creator>Carl</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 25 Aug 2008 20:40:23 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://marctyrrell.com/?p=65#comment-525</guid>
		<description>Thanks man. This is terrific. I like my binaries best of all when there are a lot of them and they cross, each bringing new dimensions into view. Your suggestions here are good to think with.

Just to trouble things along a bit, my reading of this taps another binary and perhaps another meta-epistemology, the &#039;structure/agency&#039; one. I notice myself reflexing negatively when you say &quot;It is our individual reactions, our choices, that decide which of these two reactions we will have.&quot; Sure. Sometimes. Maybe. Our individual reactions may come from many places other than our choices, e.g. the idiosyncratic pre-conscious habits of a lifetime of stimulus/response loops, &#039;habitus&#039; which is a more widely shared version of that, and ultimately the intellectual and emotional resources and options that cultures enable (and disable). 

I&#039;m in favor of holding people responsible for their actions. I don&#039;t extend that to believing that all or even most actions are &#039;intentional&#039; in a big, conscious sense of choosing actively from a complete menu of options. 

OK, so digging deeper into this I find myself wiggling uncomfortably about the importance you&#039;ve assigned to formalizable epistemologies. This is consistent with privileging individual choice. I think that&#039;s ethically convenient but anthropologically implausible. It&#039;s my impression that we know that most people&#039;s minds are actually odd bricolages, compartmentalized to allow screaming contradictions to exist. A tool for every purpose.

For some traditions of critical analysis - Marx, Mannheim, even Freud - people&#039;s conscious ideological constructs can never be assumed to match simply with their &#039;real&#039; interests and motives, let alone emotional dispositions. In this critical mode the ABC tautology you identify is evidence that there is some &#039;deeper&#039;, individually pre-epistemological causal coherence at work. 

In a more non-linear mode we could see A, B and C as emergent clusters in a dynamical system characterized by feedback and some turbulence. Although each cluster is important, none is sui generis or decisively causal for the whole complex. 

That&#039;s how I think about individual choice and conscious ways of knowing, which I think you capture better in referring to conditioning by socio-cultural dynamics and environmental selection criteria. Cheers!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Thanks man. This is terrific. I like my binaries best of all when there are a lot of them and they cross, each bringing new dimensions into view. Your suggestions here are good to think with.</p>
<p>Just to trouble things along a bit, my reading of this taps another binary and perhaps another meta-epistemology, the &#8216;structure/agency&#8217; one. I notice myself reflexing negatively when you say &#8220;It is our individual reactions, our choices, that decide which of these two reactions we will have.&#8221; Sure. Sometimes. Maybe. Our individual reactions may come from many places other than our choices, e.g. the idiosyncratic pre-conscious habits of a lifetime of stimulus/response loops, &#8216;habitus&#8217; which is a more widely shared version of that, and ultimately the intellectual and emotional resources and options that cultures enable (and disable). </p>
<p>I&#8217;m in favor of holding people responsible for their actions. I don&#8217;t extend that to believing that all or even most actions are &#8216;intentional&#8217; in a big, conscious sense of choosing actively from a complete menu of options. </p>
<p>OK, so digging deeper into this I find myself wiggling uncomfortably about the importance you&#8217;ve assigned to formalizable epistemologies. This is consistent with privileging individual choice. I think that&#8217;s ethically convenient but anthropologically implausible. It&#8217;s my impression that we know that most people&#8217;s minds are actually odd bricolages, compartmentalized to allow screaming contradictions to exist. A tool for every purpose.</p>
<p>For some traditions of critical analysis &#8211; Marx, Mannheim, even Freud &#8211; people&#8217;s conscious ideological constructs can never be assumed to match simply with their &#8216;real&#8217; interests and motives, let alone emotional dispositions. In this critical mode the ABC tautology you identify is evidence that there is some &#8216;deeper&#8217;, individually pre-epistemological causal coherence at work. </p>
<p>In a more non-linear mode we could see A, B and C as emergent clusters in a dynamical system characterized by feedback and some turbulence. Although each cluster is important, none is sui generis or decisively causal for the whole complex. </p>
<p>That&#8217;s how I think about individual choice and conscious ways of knowing, which I think you capture better in referring to conditioning by socio-cultural dynamics and environmental selection criteria. Cheers!</p>
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